Welcome to this newest episode of Freedom Fridays. I'm excited because I'm welcoming another guest that I haven't met, we've only just connected offline prior to this. And I'm going to welcome onto the programme today, a lady who's calling in from the west coast of the US. She has a masters degree in counselling, and is an author and is very much immersed in the field that I'm involved in. So please welcome Kristin Taylor.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Pete. It's so nice to be here.
Yeah, likewise, and so Kristin, to kick us off? I start with the same question. The podcast is called Freedom Fridays, and often you both you and I work with people that are seeking freedom of some sort, from some things to another. So I'm interested in the line of work that you do with your clients. What are they seeking freedom from?
That's a great question. I think there are a lot of ways I could answer that. But at its most fundamental, I believe, whether they're aware of it or not, people are seeking freedom from nervous system dysregulation. So I think of the nervous system as the operating system of our body. And we're often not conscious of how to be in relationship to it, and how to regulate it. But it is at the foreground of how we think, what we feel how we move, how we breathe, or don't breathe well. And it can become the predominant element of our sense of who we are. If it is dysregulated, I know that a lot of people walk around very dysregulated, and perhaps started in childhood, this chronic state of dysregulation that leads to so much stress, and if I only had enough money, then I would feel free. If I only had enough time I would feel free. But the work that I do is helping them to find if it's even moments of freedom, but it starts in the body. Grounding in the body, regulating the nervous system.
That's interesting on many levels, Kristin. And I might just start with I've never heard anyone describe freedom from nervous system dysregulation. And as you spoke I got a sense of you know how that might show up in up in someone? Can you maybe just give us a couple of examples? How does nervous system dysregulation show up in someone? You know for half, our listeners who aren't? Aren't the mouse, the mouse in this field? have made it show up? Yeah.
The best way I think for me to describe this, it's not going to answer that question directly, but I will get there. So know that I've heard this. I encourage people to imagine a traffic light. And if they're just trying to because what we're really talking about when I work with clients, what I'm really doing is helping to raise elevate their own awareness, who they are, what state they're in. And so using the traffic light, I can say, okay, and I did not make this up, by the way. So I'd completely steal this and I can't remember the name of the woman I stole it from but I'm not the only one who's using this. If each colour were a state of nervous system activation, and each colour had accompanying words to it. Green would be when you are relaxed, you are present, you are connected to joy you are connected to yourself. It's called in polyvagal. Theory land, it's called ventral vagal. It's nice. And if it had words it would say "I am".
Then think about our lives and our worlds and all the things that we have to do. And I work with executives. And so they have a lot of responsibility. There's a lot of stress, but whether you're an executive or you're a stay at home parent or whatever you find yourself doing there's a lot of pressure. And then you get into what is called sympathetic activation. Heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up in that state. If it had words it would say "I have to". I have to do this, I have to do that. So I think people can relate to that. That feeling of getting out of bed and going huh, I have to do this. I have to do that. It's not that 'I get to' it's 'I have to'. Green is I 'get to'. Yellow is sympathetic activation, 'I have to'.
Then often when I'm working with people, they get to the place - they're bordering on burnout. They're not sleeping well. They're just continually stressed out tonnes of anxiety, overthinking, they're in what David Goleman calls an amygdala hijack. They're in the most primitive part of their brain, that is the emotion centres, the fear centre, and they're living there a lot of cortisol, a lot of adrenaline, I have certainly lived there far longer than I wish that I had. And that is red, and if it had words, it would say "I can't". And in polyvagal, land, it's called dorsal shutdown. It's when you get shut down. So often people look like they're checked out. They looked like maybe they seem fine on the surface, but they're bordering into depression and illness. And so, so many of the people that I work with, are saying things to me, like, I don't know, if this is a life I want to live, maybe I'm wasting my life, I'm not experiencing joy. Like, I felt like this was something I have to do, but I'm losing myself.
And so to be able to even have a simple tool like that, to start to register, like there are words for this, you are not alone, to recognise what it feels like in your body, the accompanying emotions to have language helps the beginning of the journey to start to get back to the green 'I am' and to feel regulated. Smile to laugh.
As we chatted before, Kristin, this might take longer than the normal podcast. There's so many things, so many ways I could take this. Let me, I'm just going to go with the first thought I had. I'm fascinated by your experience around "this starts in our body". And the distinction I'm making is for your average George S on the street, when they have issues, whatever they are, I think most of them would think it's in their head, sitting between their ears. So they go to a therapist, a doctor, a psych, you know, or, you know, they'd be addicted to something. So they might go and go, I need to get help, I need to get help with what's going on in my head. The irony being of course, your head is part of your body. Course, like der, obviously. But we somehow make this distinction that it's not, I think. And so I'm fascinated in your experience of everyone would accept at least intellectually, you know, mind and body body/mind, same thing. But when we come to seek help, if we've got that awareness, my experience of me and some things I've gone and done down the road and earlier on and some clients and colleagues and family members is we go to get help about what's going on in our head nd we've inadvertently made this distinction already, that that's not my body, which does not make sense. When you lay it out in that sense, um, and fasten if you could touch a little bit on that, you know, the the aspect to which it sits in our body, and yet we seek help from our head.
Yeah, you just pointed to the crux of where I show up. We can't out think stress. And it is a big misconception if we think we can. There's so much around positive attitude, positive mindset, reframing cognitive behavioural therapy, and they have their place and they're important. So I'm not denigrating them. Yeah, we are the entirety I would say mind, body and spirit. But we have sort of artificially separated them to our detriment. Yeah. And so when they look at the communication channels, I say they meaning the neuroscientists, the communication channel, between mind and body, brain and body, but the spinal cord nervous system 80% goes from the body to the brain. 20% goes from the brain to the body, and yet we're up here saying let me try to outrank this moment. If I'm nervous, I'm going to remind myself I can do hard things. I'm going to remind myself that I'm good enough. I'm smart enough all the affirmations. But if the body is saying there's a five alarm fire and you are not safe, it doesn't matter. And then people again think there's something wrong with me, I can't why I must be disordered. I can't fix myself, I've got to fix myself. I'm not strong enough. Yeah. Rather than understanding that is your nervous system. And there are tools to begin to sooth that. One of the most obvious ones being just breathwork. Right? Understanding the two branches of the nervous system, sympathetic, parasympathetic, and using the breath, to engage parasympathetic, to down regulate, so that we can get out of our amygdala, our lizard brain, "I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die". And feel safe and calm. So that the parts of our brains that are most evolved, can get online. But I'm so grateful that you that you recognise that, and are saying that.
I think there's a real challenge for people. Because, you know, and I read something recently, which which some of this, what appears like a really small distinction for me, because I'm immersed in this, and this is partly what I love. It's like such a huge distinction. So even just for example, you saying, you know, green is I get to where orange is, I have to. For me, that is a massive distinction that's so simple, yet profound. I read something recently that we're seeking peace of mind when we should be seeking peace from mind, which is such a simple, but massive distinction.
Yes, I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off. So like, peace from mind? I mean, unpack that. And there's so much there.
So much there. And yet, again, I think often people will take it literally and go, Yeah, but I've got to think. and I've got to bring for a reason, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and post rationalised the, maybe the lack of awareness that might be sitting there. Because it's all in my head. Yes. And I just want peace from that. And, you know, you're making this beautiful distinction, which I'm... Do you think, I'm interested in your view, do you think people get it? As in they understand the Brain Body Spirit connection, spiritually? Do they get it intuitively, but they might ignore it cognitively?
Great question. I think it depends. So it depends, like, on who I'm working with. So I'll just think about the people I've and you know, much like we were talking about before you started recording, knowing your audience, like, Who do you share what with when and why? That really connects to why they hired you what they want to accomplish who they are. Some people I work with, it's an intuitive knowing. And I would say that intuitive, depending on who they are. But my belief if it was separate from them, when they speak to intuition, to me, that's like a spiritual connection. And there is wisdom in the body. If you were like thinking about the chakras or energy work, like there's a lot there that I know this much about when there's this much to now. I worry when people, I don't worry, I note when people are locked in their head and they want to just continually try to understand it just cognitively the work that I do around mindfulness and around nervous system regulation is I hope to support people to be embodied and whether that's grounding exercises I help with being in the moment which is like everyone says "Be in the moment" but this is stay in the moment by moment attention. Start with just feel your hands close your eyes and what does it feel like on the inside of your hands? Really training the brain to connect with being in the body. And like when an emotion comes up So green is 'I am', yellow is 'I have to'. So let's say they're in 'I am'. When you feel 'I am' what does your heart feel like? What is your breath feel like? If you feel sympathetic activation 'I have to'. Or you feel any number of emotions, sadness, nervousness, agitation, resentment, what have you? When it's with you, when it is present, where do you feel it in your body?
So what I'm trying to do is number one, take out judgement. There's no right or wrong, right? It's just an experience. Give it a name. Feel it. What sort of sensation is it? Is it pulsating? Is it dry? Is it hot? Is it you know, crumbly, like prickly? What do you know? So it takes away. Judgement helps with neutrality helps with curiosity, and it opens up fields of data. Right? I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I want them to start to recognise that this mind body spirit. It is just basically this perceptual field that we live in, open up and pay attention because it's communicating to you. Does that make sense to you?
I've forgotten the question as well, Kristen. But I'm loving the conversation because it reminds me - so I'll pick up on the last part, and then I've got a couple of questions. It's one of the reasons I called my business 21 Whispers. Because I believe that life whispers to us, but we only tend to do something when it shouts. Now the shout might be the 21 is an arbitrary number, it can be six or 472. It doesn't really matter. The 21st Whisper could be my wife's been telling me something for 20 years, and I hear it from a person at the bus stop. It just happens to trigger me to go, Oh.
And I remember a really specific event years and years ago, it was prior to me even getting married. I was, I was in the UK, I was part of a pharmaceutical company going around rural England, trying to get them to stock up on pharmaceuticals. So I'd be having a conversation with the pharmacist and, and the people working in the pharmacy. And I remember because I used to bite my nails. And I've been told for years. You shouldn't bite your nails. It looks ugly, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Yeah, I'll stop. I'll stop stop. And I remember, I can probably take you back to the same store. It was one of the ladies behind the pharmacy desk, who out of the blue said, Oh, look at your nails. Stopped. From that moment onwards, I've never bitten my nails again.
The connection I'm making is that happened to be a random mysterious magical 21st Whisper. I'd heard all of the logic. I'd heard all of the rationale. And I knew it wasn't the right thing to do. But this random person who made a random comment in a random way at a random place, suddenly got me to stop. So hence, 21 Whispers is I believe life is whispering to us all the time, but some thing has to happen for it to be the 21st - to get us to do something.
Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so many questions about that. Because when I think, because I agree with you, 100%. And I think that's both poetic and just incredibly accurate. And it goes to what I'm saying about open up your proverbial ears and your mind, body and spirit so that you can be receptive more quickly that it doesn't take 21 or 473, or whatever it is, right? Yeah. Was there something and you may not, this may be leading in a direction that's not helpful or really emphasising what you're emphasising. But in that moment, were you like, what state were you in? Like? Do you remember what you were feeling? Or how that comment felt coming from her? Was there anything different about your ability to receive it differently?
I wouldn't know. Tt was such a long time ago. Um, my guess would be it's somebody I've never met. And I will never meet again Never. It was a random Inconsequential. Wasn't trying to impress wasn't trying to you know, obviously I was in I was probably in a you know, client supplier sales scenario, as we all are all the time, so there was no rationality to why that person at that time, but hence the you sometimes never know when the 21st whispers happens, because it might not come from your loved ones. But they've been building all the way. And you've been ignoring, ignoring, ignoring, ignoring, suddenly some random thing happened - well I better shift, I better do something.
And so I've had that experience many times and so I you know, see myself as not not literally but I guess philosophically, a bit of a whisperer - that if I'm working with a group, and, and the irony is, I will never know. But if act or I go into it with a strong intention of being the next whisper for them. And only occasionally do you become do you get the the acknowledgement that it's been the 21st. Somebody will say, oh, Kristin, you've saved my, you've changed my life. And you go - Well, thank you, I haven't, because it's been happening all the way up to this point. But often, and this was a real big change for me in the work I do. Part of my immaturity and ego needed to be the 21st whisperer more often. And obviously, partly it pays the bills. I'm much more comfortable these days, not all the time, but more times of happening to be the second or the 17th, or the 45th. And I'll never know. I'll never know. But going into it with a strong intention that I'm speaking to someone and I have no idea who it is. I have no idea who's going to hear this. But someone might.
That's right. That's right. I was just, I was just saying that to someone. I was just saying that to someone she was going to do something scary. I say you have no idea who might hear your words and it might have a difference. It was just this morning.
Yeah. I do a weekly whispers blog, which is, you know, a couple of paragraphs about some random stuff I'm thinking about are looking into, and I put a question and a quote in there. On many occasions, I have no idea how this is going to be received. But on many occasions, I get the odd email back from a random person saying I needed to hear that today. Yes. And I don't know what that's about. I don't even know if they know what that's about. But there's something in that intentionality about putting things out there and being open so others can receive it.
Yes, the intentionality. And the way I think about that is let me be a voice or a vessel, because I believe sometimes it's not even from me, like there's an interconnectedness that I'm tapping into, allow me to be open to that. Yeah, I had a friend that, you know, I haven't seen him in years. I mean, now it's harder to see people. But he messaged me, and said, I wanted to tell you that two years ago today, you said something that changed my life. And I'm like, What did I say? And he said it back to me. And I'm like, that sounds like something I would say. And I say things like that all the time. But for whatever reason, that day, that time, that message he needed to hear the 21st Whisper.
Yeah, yeah. And I become more open and relaxed about it being as almost as random as that, and that's okay.
Yeah, it reminds me to when I have when someone says something, I'm listening to a podcast or conversation or reading whatever I'm doing and someone said something that's that 21st Whisper for me like, Oh! And then I expect when I share that, like, pearl of wisdom, everyone's going to get it too and they're like anyway... don't you get it!
Can I ask you a couple of practical questions. And again, like, we've all done - I'm going to steal this with pride, you said that we can't out think stress, which even in itself could be a turn around for someone. What do you mean, I can't out think it? Okay. So what would you advise they do? And I know, it's a depends. But if I came to you and said, Look, you know, I'm struggling with my mental capacity or my mental health, you know, again, we know that physical health contributes to mental health, which sometimes gets forgotten. But what would you could you help me is a two or three things you could suggest if I was trying to not out think stress, how do I neutralise it?
Yeah, yeah. So I think there's about three steps to this. I'd like it to be three steps, might be four. So the first thing is the pause button. The fact that you in this hypothetical are saying I'm stressed already that is interrupting the habit because you're saying this is what's happening. I am highly sensitive, and sometimes that's a beautiful thing. And often it's a point of very, very much suffering in my life because I can get activated very easily. And what I've come to say, when I find myself sort of in a spiral or an activation 'I have to' or you know, I will just say 'it's happening'. All right? And that's like pushing the pause button. What I like about that phrase, it's happening. It's not good or bad. There's no judgement. It's just Oh, it's here. It's here, and then give the stress a name. And I don't mean Georgia Frank. But I mean, like, that might work. That might work. But what I'm hoping people do is they increase their emotional vernacular, so there's more nuance. So they can say, I'm feeling anxious or, you know, overwhelmed, or trepidatious, or whatever word that feels right, just giving it a name. They've done studies and there's a study out of UCLA that was called 'effect labelling' that it goes a long way in emotional regulation. Number one you recognise it's happening. This is not pleasant. It's happening. And then you give it a name. I'm going to give you four steps.
Okay, great. Like a bonus step.
And then the next thing is to breathe. And when I say breathe, like, I've had many episodes where I felt very upset, and people say, breathe, breathe, breathe. And I'm like that that's not such a helpful thing. And I'm breathing. Yeah, I'm hyperventilating for crying out loud. Start with the exhale because we are hyperventilating. And I'll explain. We've got two branches of the nervous system, one is sympathetic, that's up regulating heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up. That's really helpful if you're about to give a presentation and you want a little bit more energy, you're about to, you know, run in a race, you want some more energy. But so often, when we're stressed, excuse me, we're in sympathetic. The other side is parasympathetic. And that is rest and digest, that's when we are chilly chill and we feel good. And that's what we seek more often. But it is hard often to achieve when there is stress. And so when we inhale, we're activating sympathetic, we're up regulating when we exhale, we're activating parasympathetic, we're down regulating. So one of my favourite breathing techniques, is what's called ratio breathing. Ratio is that the inhale is shorter. And the exhale is longer. So you're using your physiology, to regulate your nervous system, you're using your breath to regulate this sensation of whatever the distress is. So like, in through your nose, for and there's no magical number, it's tuning into what feels right to give your body the oxygen it needs. For accountancy say 4 and then out through pursed lips, like you're blowing through a straw because it slows it down 8-10, 12, 16. Whatever feels right, and the magic number there six. Do it six times and you will feel a difference in your physiology. And then you're out of that limbic system, the amygdala. And you can start to ask yourself questions.
And this is step number four. So now your body is like, Hey, we're good. We're good. Then the brain wants to go. Here's the question everyone asks and I love the question why but not in these moments? Why gets us right back into what's broken? What's wrong? How can I am I going to drown or be overwhelmed in this moment? It's not helpful. The most important question to shift to is to say - What do I need? Instead of why is this happening? It's what do I need? And already, that can help people orient differently and care for themselves differently. Four steps.
Can you repeat the four steps for me Kristen, I got one hit the pause button.
One hit the pause button. One name it. I mean two name it, excuse me. 3 is breathe - ratio breathing. And then four is instead of asking why is this happening? Ask - What do I need? Okay, what do I need right now? Maybe you need to get up and walk around. Maybe I need a hug. Maybe I need to splash cold water on my face. Maybe I need to ask a question. Maybe I need reassurance?
I'm going to play sceptic for a second. What if I follow the steps and what I need is not available?
Give an example of what you might need that would not be available?
Really practical. You know, the classic. I'm walking on stage to do a conference speech. And I'm perspiring, I can feel my stomach in knots and I've got this dialogue going Pete you're not ready. This is going to be awful - hang on, remember what Kristin said. So I hit pause. I name it. And again, I totally get that most people's emotional vocabulary goes nowhere near beyond - good, bad, happy, sad. But that's a good starting place. I can name it. I do ratio breathing, and then ask myself the question, what do I need right now? And what if the answer, for example is? I don't know? Or the answer is, well, I need this to be over. Or I need to have more time to prepare. You know, what if the answer to that question makes it even worse?
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's why you work with a coach. Right? Um, so that's where it's teaching self compassion. So when you're learning about self compassion, that's also that moment to moment awareness to say in this moment, what do I need? If I were going to add more nuance to this? To be kind of nurturing to myself? Because what we're seeking is regulation. And so I follow a woman, she is a psychologist and a Buddhist practitioner. Her name is Tara Brach. Yeah. And yeah, she teaches, but it's an acronym called R.A.I.N. And so it's Recognising, it's Allowing. And then I want to slow down around allowing, so much of our suffering comes from avoiding feeling.
I feel like diving, let's dive in. I'm, I'm going to be self indulgent here, Kristin, I want to dive into that. I'll come back to it so tell me about the i n is first.
Okay. And then the I is investigate, and the N would bring up rain is Nourish or Nurture? I like nurture. .
Perfect. Lovely. I'll come to that. So I'm fascinated about this allow. The reason I'm fascinated is I can't remember, I forgotten the chaps naming was a book a while ago, and it doesn't really answer the question. But it got me into this distinction between trying to force something to happen, or allowing something to happen. So this toggling between force and allowance. You know, full confession here, I've been very good in my life, about making things happen. Very good. You know, hence, thing I said to you prior, you know, one of the, which I've written about best and worst things that ever happened to me was my dad passed when I was 10. So, again, it allowed me then to see if I put effort in if I work hard if I make it happen. And if I do this, if I do that, some pretty good things can happen. So it's very easy to get conditioned. And I don't mean by the violently force, but it's me, I can make it happen. I'm going to agency. Yeah, I've got absolute 100%. agency. So then balance that with allow. And the distinction, the binary distinction I made was, well, that 0% agency, that's, I know, it's not this, that's me giving up that's me not controlling, that's me not caring, that's me not, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Intellectually, I know it's elegant and more relaxing, and perhaps gives me what I need rather than what I want. And I know that the rationality out of it all, but how I'm asking for a friend. How do you navigate that tricky balance of, because there must be some situations, here's my rationale kicking in for when making stuff happen by you is okay. There must be right. And yet, it's the only approach I've got. And I'm heaping bags of pressure on my shoulders become five miles wide, etc. So it's too much. How do you balance that force versus allow?
Well, I think we're talking about different things here. Okay. So what I hear you talking about are situations, circumstances, but I'm talking about is emotion. And so in a moment of regulation, let's say you are feeling sad. Most of us, and this is really a Buddhist practice and belief. When emotion comes most of us it doesn't feel good. So we push it down, or we push it away. Right? That's one thing. We avoid it, we repress it, we suppress it. The second thing is it becomes an organising principle of who we are. Oh, I'm sad. There's something wrong with me. We it's an over identification right? And so what I'm saying, because then I want to get back to what you're saying. Because that's really important. It's just different. What I'm saying is when we feel something, and we go, no pick up my phone, distract, call someone go for a run, those Oreos look good. Whatever it is. We're creating what's called amplification, whatever we persist, so that sadness isn't going anywhere, it's just kind of getting locked in the cells locked in the body. To come out sideways in one way or another, whether you end up you know, snapping at your child, you know, swatting away the dog, flipping someone off in traffic, like it's there, or just not acknowledging and not letting it move through. And so that is the allow in R.A.I.N saying, okay, sadness, I feel you. I'm going to acknowledge that you are presently here within what is called. And this is why working with Coach working with a therapist, that this is all really new, and you find yourself caught in a lot of hijacks, emotionally, or spirals, emotionally, this is why it's nice to have this process facilitated, because it needs to be within your window of tolerance. If you have for 40 years condition using your term yourself not to feel anything, and suddenly you're like, I'm going to feel this it can be like, get flooded, and talk about getting dysregulated in your nervous system going into our activation or shutdown. So it's in doses that feel right. But what I hear you saying with like, okay, so life just threw me a curveball. And I find I get most of my self worth. And I'm getting all of these accolades and reinforcement and financial reward. And there's so much that says, Yes, be an agent of change, it's a beautiful thing. But if it's done to you can't rest. And the word instead of allow that I would use in that word is sometimes it's surrender. When do you know when to surrender? The self awareness piece, that's what we're talking about with nervous system regulation, like, what is in the driver's seat? Is it my nervous system that's in the driver's seat, if I can allow my body to be calm, and I can say what is in my highest good? If I am most connected to my wisdom, what is the right choice? Then in those moments, because your body is calm, you're connected to the, you know, most evolved part of the brain, your prefrontal cortex. Then you can have self inquiry that connects with your values, connects with your desires, not in the moment, but a big part of you. Then you can say right now, it actually is really important not to come from like this egoic small place of scarcity and fear competition, but to say, what's in my best interest is let this one go. I made it all sound so easy, it's so darn hard.
Well, just pick up on another little point there. Again, we could go many places, but that it's, it's, it's touched me because I, I've been into all of these things. For example, meditation for a while, but only in the last three years really done it consistently. One of the things that I one of the people I listened to consistently is Canadian lady called Sarah Blondin. And the most consistent meditative track that I listened to is Learning to Surrender. Now what I had to do, initially was absolve my attachment to the meaning of the word which is to give up in the, as in, that's a bad thing I've never given up in my life. That's what's made me by not giving up. And so even just this distinction around the word surrender is actually it's not necessarily giving up. It's letting go. Which, you know, is such an interesting distinction, and I've probably listened, you know, I'm just looking at my app, I think I'm at 367 days consecutively, it would have been at least maybe 100 listens to that same 10 minute podcast, because I feel I need constant reminding of what I know to be true when I'm present. Yeah, but we're so often forced or we allow ourselves to get forced into past or future, that it's so easy to forget.
That's right. That's right. I love that distinction of surrender is letting go. And there's freedom in that. There is there is and although it can feel like if I'm doing means something if I'm achieving something, if I am, you know, manifesting something that is most meaningful, but that's when you can get caught in the grips of, you know, your own tyranny, your own egoic fear based journey.
Yeah, the distinction made about the driver's seat that you probably familiar with this. Often in the work I do with clients, I at least introduce them to the concept of whether they are having thoughts or had by their thoughts. And this visual, which I think people get is, you know, is the thought is the feeling is the story is in the driver's seat or the passenger seat. Because in the passenger seat that might be helpful. It might be informative, it might be there for a reason that you need it in three weeks time. Right, but right now, if it's in the driver's seat, you're kind of succumbing to it, you're being had by it.
Okay, well i'm stealing that. That's so good. That is so good. It also reminds me Deepak Chopra says, Are you the thinker, or are you the thoughts? And that's more of a mindfulness thing. Because people will believe their thoughts. Yeah. And they're had my thoughts that are actually not helpful in the moment. Yeah.
So do you have any? Look, I know, it depends on any answer with regard to human beings? The answer is always It depends. A little bit like you're in four steps in the R.A.I.N acronym. Any tips on how to help someone from overthinking?
Well, it's all very, I fear that I will get redundant. Because it's all the practice of mindfulness. recognising what I will often do when working with people is I'd show them a very short video on neuroplasticity. Or we have a habit of thought the more deeply grooved and strengthened that neural pathway is. And so it can be very hard, then to start thinking, doing believing practising whatever it is to change but to recognise that our brains are not fixed, that there is that level of plasticity and it is a practice, not a perfection, to notice. I was trained as what's called a narrative therapist, and one of the tenants is looking for exceptions to problem saturated stories. So let's say the identified problem is I overthink everything, to recognise the language, always saying Never. Right, like, well, I bet there are moments where you have not. Yeah, find those exceptions. And the mindfulness practice is the noticing, again, are you the thinker or the thoughts? To start to interrupt it. And to support people and noticing when they're really caught in their head. To be able to feel caught in your head right now. How do you know you're caught in your head? I mean, it's really mad.
yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine someone in that stress state going with because I am, don't you dare ask.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But again, it's the self awareness. Okay, when you're there. And because I am don't ask. It's like, let's talk about that traffic line. Where are you right now? Are you 'I have to'? Most likely they're in sympathetic activation. And their brain has been a very reliable - thank God. And we don't want to disparage thinking like, Thank you thinking you have served me so well. It's not the bad guy. But you want to be able to back to that like mind body spirit, access to greater perceptual field recognise there are other parts of you that may have greater wisdom or provide greater relief or insight or whatever it is that freedom that you want to achieve. Let's wake them up to thank you brain and let's invite other parts of who you are to the party, which is so easy to say. But that goes back to the embodiment. And particularly people who've had trauma. They may not even be connected to their body. So it's starting really, really small. With just what's called interoception, which is the felt experience of living in the body. Like, what does it feel like when you swallow? What does it feel like inside your body? When your heart is beating? What does it feel like when you're digesting your lunch? Right, just the sense of being in your body if for some reason being in their body has not been safe. That's a whole nother conversation.
Yes, it is. Yes. And how do you - it's not necessarily a how to question but I'm interested in for someone that lacks, for whatever reason, awareness of their body and they come to you or I or any anyone that does this work. And you ask them a question like, how does it feel in your body when you swallow? How does it feel in your body when you're trying to digest your lunch?
If they've never even gone there been asked any sort of questions like that? Do you have to - I'm not going to choose my words carefully, but you have to help them preventing from doing it cognitively? Because I could, I could, I could ask that I could answer that question cognitively. Uh huh. The irony is, you're not asking me a cognitive question.
Yeah. Yeah. That may be the inroad. I mean, if you'd like it's really baby steps. Or there could be practices. Right? So it may be okay. So what I am, this is what I will do with people. I may ask them, not even to use words. But I want you to close your eyes. And I want you to swallow and just notice. There's no right or wrong, but just notice sensation, you will not need to report back to me with words. Just now, I want you to close your mouth. And I want you to notice, notice the saliva in your mouth. It seems like you I'm paying you to tell me to feel a saliva in my mouth. It's so important.
I know. And I'm just imagining, you know, as we do the, you know, the, the hardened, battle weary corporate executive, you know, when you because I've done this before, as well, you know, in going through some processes with clients, and you know, you right, here's what you're going to do about it. Nothing. It completely freaks them out. But hang on, nothing! I can't not do nothing. I've got to do something. So what do you want me to do Pete? Well, nothing. I just want you to notice. I can't just notice that's pathetic! And you get all of this narrative coming out. Hopefully it's expressed and I can help them but if it's expressed go awa going, that's rubbish. You can't do nothing.
Yeah, that exactly. Exactly. And that is where a tonne - This is where for me as a coach, if I'm working with a client who has that sort of constitution, back down belief system. That's where neuroscience helps me. If I can make it sound fancy and scientific, then there's some legeticimacy.
Classic classic, isn't that your there's letters after my name, I'm wearing a white coat. So you might listen to me.
Exactly, exactly it exists both ways. But if I can use a big word like amygdala then...
Kristin must know what she's talking about.
I can be full of crap. But yeah, it's getting the buy in and reaching them where they are. And it's also really normalising that's a big one to just normalise that they are not alone.
A little bit of a random thought here, Kristin. And, um, you can choose not to answer if if you if you like, but I'm interested. And I'm going to get personal here. So this is probably more about me. To what extent do you believe or subscribe to the view that we're teaching what we most need to know.
100% Yeah, that is me. So it's just you and me that are screwed up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I don't you know, I walk around teaching people everything that I've had to learn from my own healing, right? Yeah. 100% and when I love being able to connect with people who can be honest enough to say that I work with things because I've struggled with anxiety my whole life. I worked with imposterism because I've struggled with impostorism, I've worked with dysregulation because having a childhood where there was trauma, and I'm highly sensitive. I've lived too many minutes, hours, weeks, months, years of my life, highly dysregulated. So it's what I feel like I'm here to do what I'm here to share. And it's hard though because it feeds the imposterism. I'm like, I want to be like I'm always chill chill. No, I'm not! I'm in the practice. I almost feel like kind of like the wounded and I don't think I'm a healer but using that archetype Yeah. Right. And I've struggled with God. I mean, how much do I share with them that I know it? Because I trainset. And I find them more than I'm really real with. I'm in this practice with you. It's disarming. And people feel seen in a way that if it was just clinical for me, and I'd already arrived, and yeah, right. I'm continually working on this stuff. Yeah, always. Yeah, I'd love to hear you. I want to hear your story around that.
I forgot my train of thought, because, well, this might lead into it. And then this might be actually in fact, in some ways, as I'm pausing to reflect this probably is a little a lot of it. I'm observing, you know, this post COVID shadow to some degree, but many, many other circumstances where people are, what's the right word? In this manner, but they're struggling or needing or clamouring for, or hungry to be seen, heard and held. So if I turn that round, in the work I do, yeah, I don't think I'm seen. I don't feel heard. And it's not the physical held, necessarily, but it's held in a space where it's okay to express and move and almost every person I come across, maybe projecting this a bit. There's some sense their life is causing them not to be seen, heard or held.
Yes, I agree. I agree. Go ahead. I want hear your question.
Is that the human condition?
I believe it's part of the human condition. Yeah.
That's our lot. We just have to deal with that.
Well, I think, you know, that's our lot. We have to deal with that, I think, number one, there's a sense of purpose, and you're giving a gift. I do believe that. By virtue of being human, we need and seek connection we want to be seen, heard and held, I think that it's just really essential to who we are. We are social creatures. And the world that we live in certainly doesn't support that. It's about competition, it's about have, it's about have not, it's about working in our homes in isolation. It's about scarcity. And this yearning, I think, is really quite beautiful. Because it connects us, in my estimation to the most beautiful parts of us, it connects us to heart energy. It's the language of love. And you identify that you want more of that, and have moments. I don't want to put words in your mouth that I imagined where there's loneliness or isolation or, and so you're giving that love. And you are someone who is elevating the need for that love. Yeah. And I imagine it Well, tell me what does it feed in you to give that to other people?
My thought went to unconditional acceptance. But that's where it went. And you know, for me, again, here, this is not necessarily about me, but it could be informative what I've had to what I'm working on privately, and it's it's a constant is being open, and, you know, self compassionate to receive. I think that's one of the my biggest challenges I'm, I haven't been been built to receive. So whether it's a compliment, or love or a hug, or compassion, it's almost like I deal with it intellectually, as opposed to feel it in my body. And so that's what if we are all on a journey that's part of the human condition. That's part of my condition. It's it's working to open up as whatever is necessary for me to receive the different ways in which love or acceptance is expressed towards me.
That resonates more than you know. Yes, it's I'm working with my own coach, and that is something we are working on that I am working on. Yes, yes. And so I just think there's something really magical and really essential. In that, that is what you are working on and you are concious of that. And yet you are in the line of work where you are giving it. So if you are purposely Yeah. Right. Same with me. And to me, it's part of my healing to give it.
Right. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's the case for me. I know that as I've moved in, you know, immerse myself in this world that it is lonely. And it's not necessarily lonely from a physical, conversational, working with physical bodies, loneliness, necessarily. It's the it's the loneliness in feeling constricted about how you are able to express without being held, to account to that expression that you express yesterday, which might not be true today, because you were just expressing.
Yeah.
And, you know, in our field of work, often and professionally, we can't express and we shouldn't express necessarily, because it's inappropriate, actually, it's boundaries, right? I get that. And yet not having an outlet where I can express random stuff. You know, because if I can't express it, I've got to hold it. Yeah. It becomes heavy.
Well, yeah, begins heavy. So in the last year, I'm now working with two coaches because I became sick from the lack of expression. Something called frozen shoulder. Some call it 50 year old woman disease, but it got locked. It got locked in incredibly painful. Wow. And being me. Yes, there's a physiological reason, but then no one can identify the cause. Why? And I started to really like, well, what is the shoulder represent? Okay, you know, sort of, like, holding world on our shoulders. Yeah. So many stories of people both that I work with, in my practice. My family told you I'm a caregiver for my mother. Yeah. There's just so much and also, the relationship with my mother shared is not always easy. It's almost like hold the armour against hurtful I might get and my shoulder locked up. And it was only when I started expressing. My therapist gave me the homework. There's a place in our town. I haven't yet done it yet. But there's an our town where they have like, old TVs and appliances, and you basically put like a hazmat suit on they give you a baseball bat, and you just go in there. Move some of that energy. Yeah. Wow, I'm holding so much, but not releasing it.
Yeah. Kristin have you heard of a field? I think it's called psycho neuro immunology.
No, but I feel like I am getting what that must be. Because that speaks to what I just said.
Yeah, it's exactly that. And as far as I haven't explored it in depth. But as far as my limited understanding it is it's this idea that our body holds disease. A lot of the diseases, illnesses we are it's an unexpressed emotion, manifesting in a physical thing, and that's very high. And I've been open to this for years. And that's hard for people to cognitivelyget their heads around. Yes, well, that gets us to the idea. And this is part of the conversation earlier that I was sharing. We were sharing, but my part was, it was like, I don't know if I even said this, but I thought it we are energy. This brings a circle, mind, body and spirit. And so working with this, he's an intuitive healer. He does energy work, like visualising movement and sending energy for movement. If I'm feeling anger here, it's like feel the anger here. Take the love move it here like and it sounds so esoteric. It does. And it is so esoteric because so outside of anything that we've been taught for the field scientifically valid. But the proof is in the pudding, whether it's placebo, which is super powerful, and or actually working. It was when I started doing these things that suddenly I can move my arm and I didn't have excruciating pain. When I started emoting when I started crying when I started being seen. Then I felt relief. My body healed.
Yeah. I'm not not Pooh poohing that at all. But it almost sounds like a miracle. Right? And we know that it's not a miracle. It's just as we started this whole conversion it's just nervous system dysregulation. And I don't mean by saying it's just to negate and simplify it. Because we know it's not.
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Full Circle.
Wow. Interesting that feels like, because I'm setting up, we open up any more cans. There's two or three other things that I would like to explore, but I'm just going to be sensitive to time. So what I often do is, well, first of all, thank you for your time. And where can people reach out or read some of the stuff you've done or get in touch with you?
Yes. And so I want to clarify, I have offered authored two books. They are, however, in high revs. So it's to take a course help students with this kind of emotional regulation. So they're not going to find it that way. Unless they're in colleges, they use it, they can find me, I have a podcast, and it's called "How I made it through". Talks about challenges that people go through and how they have learned and been transformed, healed and kind of a survival guide in place of inspiration when people share their stories. Great. Also, find me at Kristen Taylor K r i s t i n Taylor consulting.com. Also find me on LinkedIn. I'm not great with the social media, that's a work in progress, but the places or I can be reached at [email protected].
And we'll put all these things in the show notes for people to connect and dive into because some of the things that we've talked about, I think people will be interested in you know, the link for the neuroplasticity video the R.A.I.N acronym from Tara Brash and things like that we can we can help people.
I like to finish off in a my sense of a little bit light. And so I've got, you know, four or five quickfire questions if you'd be happy to answer these. I would love to Yes. So are you You know, you live on the West Coast of the US. Are you more a beach or Mountain?
Mountain.
Okay. Is there a life Maxim you live by?
Yeah, every action in this world has its echo in the heart.
Like that. When you think of Sydney, Australia, what word comes to mind?
"Down Under" two words.
You go. Is that a word that you'd use to describe yourself?
That's just not quick fire one.
I've just realised that I was like.
Oh, my whatever I say I'm going to regret and think I should have said this. Yeah. Ah, heartfelt.
Again, Quick Fire question. Is that a word that other people use when they describe you?
Kind.
What's a book that's changed your life?
There's so many books. I don't know if it's the book that has changed my life. There have been so many books. A book that I've read recently that connects to so much of what I'm sharing today. Is the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Fonderful.
What a great place to finish Kristin, particularly when we talked about nervous system dysregulation and the body keeps score. Thank you so much. Not just for the time, but the connection that we've had the conversation. It's, it's been, it's been really connecting. I've felt seen heard and held. So thank you.
That makes my life. I love that. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed this so much. And I enjoyed you so much. Yes. Great.
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
Thanks again Kristen.
